Audie Cornish
00:00:00
The political backlash to the campus protests over Israel's war in Gaza was a wake up call to student activists and school leaders who've been drawn into the harsh spotlight of election year politics. And it's not over yet.
Donald Trump
00:00:15
And I will put every single college president on notice. The American taxpayer will not subsidize the creation of terrorist sympathizers on American soil.
Audie Cornish
00:00:29
I'm Audie Cornish. We're taking The Assignment on the road to talk to people wrestling with the politics of the moment. The leaders at Harvard, Columbia, Cornell and UPN all lost their jobs over the last year. So I wanted to sit down with Michael Roth, the president of Wesleyan University in Connecticut, to talk about why some schools are cracking down on protesters, and backing away from politics and why he thinks that's a mistake.
Michael Roth
00:00:58
You know, in the spring there were protests, but over 90% of them were totally peaceful. No property damage, no violence. And that was the case here. And so I think that if parents want their students not to hear messages that might upset them, they shouldn't let their kids go to college. College is a time you should hear things you didn't expect to hear. And at Wesleyan, I have found that the students have been extremely respectful of one another. Not that they agree with one another always, but they have been respectful about the differences of opinion.
Audie Cornish
00:01:30
Well, let's unpack the spring, because obviously there were campuses where there was no violence, so to speak, or clashes with police. And since you talked about not wanting to call the police to your campus, not every college and university leader felt that way. So as a result, people did see on the news these big clashes at universities. And there was a real kind of backlash to the protest movement as a result. So many colleges have changed their policies in the aftermath. So I want to ask you about a couple of things. Have you decided to make any changes to your campus demonstration or protest policies?
Michael Roth
00:02:10
We have not made any changes. We have a good policy and it does have time and place restrictions. It does...
Audie Cornish
00:02:16
And we should say time and place, because that is something colleges are allowed to do, at least public universities. And we've seen people say, look, no more overnight protests, no more amplification. Right? Don't use anything to make big sounds. You can only have school ID, you know, outside people can come onto campus. Are these things that are already in place here or?
Michael Roth
00:02:37
Not not exactly in those terms. We allow amplification, but not in the middle of the night and not during classes. So we haven't had to have intense conversations about that.
Audie Cornish
00:02:47
So there are those rules in place, it sounds like.
Michael Roth
00:02:49
Yeah, we're not you're not allowed to have a demonstration that disrupts the ongoing work of the university. So you can also play rock and roll music in front of the university center during class time. I mean, we just do it whether it's a demonstration or whether it's a party or, you know, we don't allow that. And I have to say, our protesters were very good about that from the very first day. I mean, they were angry and they want the school to divest from companies that do business with Israel. I mean, they are passionate about their beliefs, but they said, okay, after 9 p.m. or it was I think it was something like that. Yeah. We're not going to make noise.
Audie Cornish
00:03:27
Why do you think that universities are taking those steps being way more aggressive?
Michael Roth
00:03:32
Well, I think part of it is they've gotten pressure to do so. And I think that in some cases, those universities are in places where they have a hard time building relations of trust with the students and others who are demonstrating at smaller places. And I again, the vast majority of schools fall into this category, even the bigger schools. The demonstrators know that they have every right to make their point of view heard.
Audie Cornish
00:03:58
Or that it will be heard, because that's a big point of contention, right? So many student protesters and groups around the country were sort of saying, we don't actually feel heard by the universities we're talking to. And some of them, in the end did broker deals. You guys did one of these as well. I understand you're going to have a hearing or how is this going to work?
Michael Roth
00:04:18
So so it's true. I mean, go back to the beginning of your question that many protesters said, I don't feel heard, but that just what they often meant by that is you won't agree with me. You won't do what I want to do. And yeah, I've heard this. I've been doing this for a very long time now. When people don't like your decision, they say, I don't feel heard. Well, I heard you. I just don't agree with you. Or they don't like the process. But actually the process was fine. They didn't like the result. Here we wanted to make sure the students felt respected, even if it was clear. I've been on record for a long time. I think divestment is a bad idea. And that I think that the students should direct their energies elsewhere. And the United States is the most important funder of Israel's military. And if the students want to change that policy, they should be in Washington. They should be electing a different government. They should be working with their representatives. They disagree with me.
Audie Cornish
00:05:11
Me. They do. They do. And the students I spoke to, for instance, I spoke to a student who had been arrested on another campus. And he said, you know, our lever of power, so to speak, is here. The people who are most likely to listen to us is on campus, is our campus president.
Michael Roth
00:05:25
'I think that's I think that's a big mistake. They just it's just easier for them. It's not a lever of power. It's convenience. It's much more convenient to set up your tent right behind you. There's where I set them up than it is to actually try to work with the congressman or with the senator. That's hard. That takes time and takes a different kind of effort. So, the lever of powers and working the schools are not going to, I don't think the schools will divest our our particular situation is that the investment committee will hear an argument from a committee of students, faculty and staff who've put together proposal for divesting from a few hundred companies. They'll hear that on Friday. And some pro-Israel students will offer their own counter argument and that committee will vote on Friday. And then whatever they vote, they'll bring it to the board the following week or so, ten days later, and the board will have a chance to to make a decision about it. That is what we promised. So in a way, to show that we did hear them.
Audie Cornish
00:06:25
Yeah.
00:06:25
I don't know. The board will make its own decision, but I, I if the board decides not to do that, it's not because they didn't hear the argument. It's because they didn't agree with it. And one of the things I think is really clear now is that reasonable people, caring people can disagree about this issue. And how do you live with disagreement? I mean, or for me as a teacher, I think how do we make disagreement, educational? How can I learn from the protesters concerns? How can the protesters learn from the trustees' questions? That to me is what we do at a university. American foreign policy is not what we set at the university. So I would I think this is such a consequential election right now that getting the students to direct their energies towards changing American policy through the electoral system, that to me would be a much the greatest result from all of these demonstrations.
Audie Cornish
00:07:14
What's your response, though, to the fact that so many colleges did make a deal similar to yours? Right. Such shut down your encampment will have a conversation about divestment. However, that conversation goes. They were hurt. I mean, by that measure, was it effective? Was it a Pyrrhic victory? How do you think about the results of last spring?
Michael Roth
00:07:33
I think they were heard. I have I had trustees who say, we don't want to give them a victory. And I say, why not? I mean, I was I and I've written about this, as you know. I think I'm more proud that the students cared about Gaza and made their voices heard. Even if they did violate some of our rules about setting up a tent without permission in advance. These were violations. But to me, they seem less important than the fact that the students were expressing their concern about a very, very significant issue. And so I think it was a victory in the sense that it showed that the administration of the university and the board will listen to them. You can't promise them to get the results they to advance. I mean, there may be some schools that decide that they will take action on their endowments. I hope not. I think this endowmnent stuff is a fantasy that students have about where they could be effective. I don't think it's effective, but I could be wrong. I'm not an expert on on that. And and...
Audie Cornish
00:08:31
I know a lot of people have come back to you about the idea of the divestment movement in the 80s around South Africa. And now there's been a big debate about whether that was effective as well.
Michael Roth
00:08:41
I was in the students love to remind me that I was disciplined for sleeping in the office right over there, which is my office now about divestment and and and I and they asked me: do you think you were wrong then? I don't think I was wrong to care and try to do something. But I think I was probably wrong about divestment. But again, I'm not an expert not reading in the economics of this. That's what it seems to be. It's just not clear how effective they were. But I have seen and I find this really interesting.
Audie Cornish
00:09:10
But I think what they're really asking you there is in the end, did you feel justified with that outcome? Right, in the end? People looked at what was happening in South Africa culturally, internationally, and talked about it as apartheid. And there were changes. In a way, the students are kind of asking you, can't you see how we could feel justified?
Michael Roth
00:09:29
'I can. And I do see how they feel justified. And I feel I also see how for many students, this was a moment where they could come together as a generation and make their voice heard or voices heard. On the other hand, there are people here who feel passionately students and and alumni and faculty who feel passionately that Israel has a right to defend itself there. There were no people on campus than saying apartheid is defensible. There's this is different from apartheid, from my perspective, because there's a war and wars are not fought by one side. Hamas could stop the war today by surrendering. But Hamas thinks that getting Jews to kill Palestinian children is a great technique. And it's working for them because the Israeli government is so blind or stupid or self-interested that it continues to do the work that Hamas wants it to do. And so I think that although I've called for a cease fire publicly, I think the Netanyahu government is is, we would say, a shanda in my tradition. It's shameful. It's an awful thing. But I don't think divestment is the answer to that. I think getting the the American administration to change its policies, funding Israel is the way to do that. I say that as a citizen, not as a president.
Audie Cornish
00:10:49
No. And you also say that as somebody who has tried to calm the nerves of Jewish students and parents. Right? Who have come to you worried that this this demonstration, this outpouring is alienating for them and makes them feel unsafe. How did it affect how you enforce policies around campus speech?
Michael Roth
00:11:14
It didn't change the way I enforce policies. I've long argued I wrote a book called Safe Enough Spaces, and I have long argued that you have no right not to be offended. And I met with Jewish students and I rehearsed my, I think, very reasonable arguments. They were not so happy with them. They they were offended and they felt unsafe. And I had talked to them about what does that exactly mean? And it often came down to I don't like seeing those words on a wall or on the sidewalk or I don't like hearing them.
Audie Cornish
00:11:42
But there are also universities who this fall are now saying, look, if you advocate for violence, that is something we can take action on. It's not clear what that means. Right. Where that line is, they're going to be drawing that line. And I do think universities are going to have to do that more and more.
Michael Roth
00:12:00
I think you're right, although there was no one here advocating for violence.
Audie Cornish
00:12:05
But they were saying things that some students perceived that to be the case, right?
Michael Roth
00:12:08
That's true. But sometimes perceptions are wrong.
Audie Cornish
00:12:12
Does that assuage a parent?
Michael Roth
00:12:13
'So not always. But I knew there were Israelis in the encampment. There was the same proportion of Jews in the encampment as were not in the encampment. So it's not a Jew non-Jew thing. And most campuses, Jews are divided on this, too.
Audie Cornish
00:12:28
Do you think that was the perception from this past spring?
Michael Roth
00:12:30
No, because I think it's a better story to have conflict and violence. It makes the news. It's better. I hear people sitting outside playing guitar and working on their computers and and in other places, very few of them, here was violence or property damage. And that we shouldn't allow it all. When there was some vandalism here, we immediately called the police. So I think it's very clear most of the time what's violence and what speech. So when they refer to the see the famous chant, some students don't like that. And and I don't like it but...
Audie Cornish
00:13:08
'Not just don't like it. Some people say that it is anti-Semitic to say.
Michael Roth
00:13:12
'Many people say it's anti-Semitic to say and I, I can understand how they feel that way. But I, I don't think it's calling for genocide to say from sea to shining sea in our national song. I don't think that means like get rid of all the native peoples.
Audie Cornish
00:13:26
I feel like that is a very kind of controversial take right now. I think there are members of Congress that would disagree with you.
Michael Roth
00:13:32
'They would because it serves their interest to pretend to be friends of the Jews. When you have a congresswoman like Elise Stefanik, who is an advocate for replacement theory, or at least refuse to condemn replacement theory, which is overtly anti-Semitic, when you have congresspeople who refuse to condemn Tucker Carlson for bringing a Nazi apologist on his show and then saying they care about anti-Semitism. As a Jew, I find it revolting and that any Jews believe that these are really friends of the Jews. I think it's revolting. I think free speech is a very important value. I also think that when it spills into it of overt, overt threat of violence, like someone says, I'm going to get rid of the Jews at Wesleyan, I will call the police for that person. But before that, I'll have them kicked off campus.
Audie Cornish
00:14:18
'Yeah. And I mean, I don't mean to put you in the position of policing the boundaries of anti-Semitism. I certainly don't want to be doing that for racism.
Michael Roth
00:14:25
I've been doing it all my life.
Audie Cornish
00:14:26
I was about to say. But actually, you sort of signed up for that gig.
Michael Roth
00:14:30
My parents signed me up. [laughs]
Audie Cornish
00:14:31
'Yeah. And but I just wonder if, you know, you've had schools say, look, we need to pay closer attention to this. And this past spring, the protests in which people saw the intersection between anti-war sentiment, antiwar movement and antisemitism, they feel like more could be done. And do you think that is the case for schools and universities?
Michael Roth
00:14:55
'I think anti-Semitism is always present in America and in many places in the world. And I think last year, anti-Semitism was legitimated by by many pro-Palestinian demonstrators, but it's also been legitimated by many Republicans who are denouncing the changes in our society that make for more freedom among religious groups and among racial and ethnic groups. I think anti-Semitism, no question, anti-Semitism is on the rise, as is Islamophobia on our campus. I did not see antisemitism on a.
Audie Cornish
00:15:28
You don't have any special policies that have come out of this spring. Any big changes?
Michael Roth
00:15:32
I think that schools there are some schools that needed to refine their policies and there are some schools that apparently needed to tell donors that they were doing something to make what happened in the spring not happen again. I think our students should be activists. I wish their activism was trying to change the way we're represented in Washington, but in the end, it's not my call for them. What I want, my call is that I. Want to preserve the educational mission of the university and that people learn from each other even when they differ. My view is I wrote this book called The Student: A Short History, and I argue that students in the modern age are practicing freedom. That's what it means to be a college student since the 1800s is that you get to practice freedom and you get it wrong. And the consequences are there are some consequences, but they're different. Giving people leeway to practice freedom is is is one of the things we can do on a college campus that allows them to learn more. It's hard to do that at the workplace. You might get fired immediately. There are guardrails. And when students go beyond that, let's say with vandalism or with the threat of violence, I do think the school should take clear action. And and and and in our case, if students blocked an entrance to a building, we told them you're blocking interest in the building, that's not allowed. And they said, we didn't. And they moved. And it's not because they didn't care enough about their issue it's because they weren't there to block the building. They were there to make their voices heard. There are places where people want to be arrested. There are places where people want to...
Audie Cornish
00:17:01
Arrest is also considered like a legitimate form of protest as well when you have a sit in, etc..
Michael Roth
00:17:06
Yeah. And in that case, I think people should there should be consequences. So you pay respect to civil disobedience by by showing that we understand you violated the law. I think there are lots of ways of protesting that, and that's certainly an important one. And again, in this case, I think taking their energies to the government rather than to the investment committee makes a lot more sense. And in turn, given the effects they want to have in the world. I know that calling attention to the horrors of this war is a many students feel is a moral obligation, and I respect that. A lot of a lot of schools were frightened by what happened in the spring. I mean, it was very stressful. We had we have graduation right here on this field. And, you know, I was worried, could we get through it? Okay. At the end of it, I was. And there was people had Palestinian flags. Some people wouldn't shake my hand. That's perfectly legitimate. I mean, I don't like it, but it's perfectly reasonable. But they didn't stop the ceremony from taking place, which they did to other schools. And I think that was that was both sad and and bad politics because these were students last spring who had missed their high school graduations because of Covid. They had their whole lives had been disrupted. And to deprive families and other students of a chance to participate in the rituals of the university, I think, or college, that was a I think that was a political error. You know, the protesters don't ask me for my political advice.
Audie Cornish
00:18:35
No, they don't. They don't. And some say, look, we're not here for the advice. We're here for the issue, you know? You know, I want to close by asking just some questions about the atmosphere now, because, number one, you have lawmakers in Congress who are saying, look, maybe we should be doing more oversight of these schools, including private institutions which have been called into hearings. Yeah, taxing endowments, maybe kind of going after federal aid to these schools or their access to federal aid. What is that pressure feeling like from the schools? Like what are people talking about?
Michael Roth
00:19:13
I think there's a great deal of fear that the rhetoric of the anti university rhetoric, I mean, you advance to said the universities are our enemy and and the threats that we see come to fruition in Florida, for example, against academic freedom and what you're allowed to say in the classroom and other places banned books in library libraries. I think there's a lot of fear and concern on campuses about that. That's why I think people should get out and participate in the electoral system. I think that most Americans realize that in order to have genuine intellectual inquiry that will lead to innovation and cultural production and scientific discoveries, you need the freedom to explore and that you don't want the government, which can't run a railroad in this country. You don't want the government trying to run science experiments or telling people how to do history or helping your professors teach poetry. Lord would be terrible. And I think most people realize that and they stop to think about it. That doesn't mean what we do at universities is perfect. But just like we defend free speech for our students, we have to defend the freedom of our faculty and our staff and our students to pursue the research where their inquiry takes them and for the government to get involved in trying to moderate the content or control the content is such a mistake. Investing in access to education is such a gift to the country. It's a public good. People benefit from going to college. We all know that. In fact, right now there's a backlash because it's it's very clear that people who've gone to college have better lives. They have healthier lives. They have more connections. And so there's a backlash. Well, colleges and it's not fair. It's not. Yeah, everybody should have that. Everybody should have access.
Audie Cornish
00:20:59
But do you see a potential for overreach?
Michael Roth
00:21:02
I do see I mean, it's been promised in in the Heritage Foundation documents in the Trump campaign. They promise to have retribution against places of freedom. And so I think if you care about freedom, if you care about not just students, but if you the ability to think for yourself with other people around you, then I think you this is the time to defend freedom and democracy.
Audie Cornish
00:21:24
You know, Harvard University put out a statement back in May saying we will not be offering any more statements of empathy on any topic that's out of our purview.
Michael Roth
00:21:35
How silly. What what kind of statement was that? Is that a meta statement? I mean, that's what I mean. And then he made the statement that they're not going to make statements. I mean, I just think.
Audie Cornish
00:21:43
I mean, I think the former president would disagree with you. Right. And I'm bringing it to you because this, again, was a movement school were.
Michael Roth
00:21:51
You're right.
Audie Cornish
00:21:51
Offering statements about racism, about a variety of things, and, of course, about the attacks in in Israel. So I think that there was this. This is the most public tip of the spear of, you know what, we shouldn't be doing that anymore.
Michael Roth
00:22:08
You know what? I think they did that because they thought Trump was going to win. And if they make statements defending basic academic freedom, they'll anger the Trump administration. They were pricing in a Trump victory. Neutrality Somehow, suddenly everyone and neutrality became the common sense. Now, now, I don't think schools or corporations should make statements on everything. They never did.
Audie Cornish
00:22:29
But they were for a while.
Michael Roth
00:22:31
It made some...
Audie Cornish
00:22:31
There was a couple months there where felt like.
Michael Roth
00:22:33
When when people made statements about police murders of innocent folks. I don't think that's so terrible. But the idea that that school should say, I will never say anything. And Harvard said the president shouldn't say anything the day insurance or anything. Other leaders, if you want, encourage a Democratic conversation, why wouldn't you participate? I mean, presidents are paid a lot of money...
Audie Cornish
00:23:00
Their argument is we shouldn't participate in things we actually don't know that much about, like foreign policy for.
Michael Roth
00:23:04
They don't have to, of course.
Audie Cornish
00:23:05
And I think other schools might follow their lead.
Michael Roth
00:23:07
Because they think Trump might win. And if he wins and you say the wrong thing, they'll come after you. And if you say nothing. They won't come after you. They'll just come after your your undocumented students. They'll come after your. Or they may come after your gay students. They will come after your students of color. And you're not going to say anything. To me it is cowardice. It's an abdication of responsibility. You're a university president. You're not just a guy signing things and pushing papers. He's supposed to have you.
Audie Cornish
00:23:37
They're saying we're here to educate. And things beyond that are things that the students can get to on their own. But we're not here to help you guys feel it, be told this or that morally.
Michael Roth
00:23:47
We're here to help them.
Audie Cornish
00:23:47
Yeah.
Michael Roth
00:23:48
And I say something like I said before, that I think Israel should be it has the right to defend itself. The students who are against Israel, they're not. They don't feel pressure to agree with me. Then they're angry. They want to push back. I'm participating in a conversation. The idea that.
Audie Cornish
00:24:06
But that's different from a formal statement going out from the university.
Michael Roth
00:24:09
That's what they say. But I don't see why the president or the dean or they they don't they won't be speaking. I think this institutional duality. When was the last time it got its big boost? 1967. Why? So that when they came to take your students and sent to Vietnam in an unjust war to kill people who they had no business killing. That you wouldn't the university wouldn't stand up and say this war is sick. University wouldn't say that. Because why? Because they didn't want to get in trouble.
Audie Cornish
00:24:41
And so you've seen this kind of roll back before. You're saying historically?
Michael Roth
00:24:45
Yeah. And I don't think I should speak on every topic. I don't know enough. Of course not. But to express sympathy when there's a terrorist attack to. Or outrage to to to to take a position knowing that someone will take a different position at the school and then we can have a conversation. That seems to me that's what it's about, that now, Wesleyan never. Harvard doesn't speak as Harvard, but the president or Dean can speak. They do have points of view. To pretend they don't seems to me to be an educational disservice at best and cowardice at worst.
Audie Cornish
00:25:21
Michael Roth is the president of Wesleyan University. We reached out to Harvard to give them an opportunity to respond to President Roth's comments. We haven't heard back from them. If we do, we'll post their response in our show notes. Next, I'm going to check in with the student paper at Wesleyan about how the protests affected campus life and the year ahead.
Sam Hilton
00:25:47
My name is Sam Hilton. I am the executive editor of the Wesleyan Argus. I am a senior at Wesleyan University. History major. Technically a religion major, too, but we'll see how that works out. We have been publishing since 1868, so according to us, we're the oldest twice weekly college paper in the country, and I've never heard anybody dispute that fact. So I'm going to say that it's true.
Audie Cornish
00:26:11
So we have talked to Wesleyan President Michael Roth, and he does describe talking with students and trying to be understanding about their instinct to protest. And he says he wants students to protest, meaning he wants them to be politically aware and engaged. What's the reality of that on campus? What has it been?
Sam Hilton
00:26:36
I can certainly speak to what myself and a lot of other students see as his attitude towards protest, which is that he likes the image of Wesleyan as a as a sort of protest school, as a very politically engaged school, but in practice. Many people don't see him engaging with protests. I remember I was standing and sort of watching. I think I was reporting on one of the die ins for Palestine outside of our administrative building.
Audie Cornish
00:27:07
And it just so people know, this is a kind of protest where people essentially sprawl out on the ground looking like dead bodies to make their point.
Sam Hilton
00:27:16
Yes, exactly. And I believe he was walking by to get to a meeting. And there was a group of students that said, you know, President Roth, President Roth, come talk to us. President Roth, you want to negotiate? Let's negotiate. Let's talk let's let's debate. And he sort of just laughed, waved at them and kept walking, which certainly he could have had a meeting to go to. I don't doubt that he had somewhere to be. But that that sort of sentiment is what I think a lot of Wesleyan students picked up from him. That sort of, how great you're protesting. And then he keeps on walking and goes to his his job. I mean, it's certainly preferable to what we've seen happen at schools like Columbia or like U.T. Austin, where the president and the administration and the police have been actively abusing protesters, have been actively stifling free speech in very clear, physical and dangerous ways. But I think that the outward pro protest image that Wesleyan has is capitalized on by the university quite a bit.
Audie Cornish
00:28:24
What do you think? Or the takeaway lessons for students. As you said, watching this whole thing play out in the spring. What do you think people walked away with, after that couple of months.
Sam Hilton
00:28:39
'It certainly showed how much people can actually differ in opinions on this campus. There has been a lot of discourse in the past about, you know, Wesleyan is so is so left, it's so liberal. You know, there's no other voices. And this was certainly gave, I think, a lot of students a wake up call of, not everybody here, you know, agrees with me on most things, which I think is is good, that people are realizing that they do have to be able to defend their positions. But I also think that it made a lot of people scared. You know, I have had friends who were deeply pro-Palestine, who have been called like pigs, anti-Semitic, shouted at even if they're Jewish, through the windows of cars on the main road that goes to campus. One of my housemates last year got a text saying, Are you a Zionist in the middle of the night from an unknown number? It certainly created, I think, a little bit more of an air of of caution and fear on campus.
Audie Cornish
00:29:46
Can you talk about that feeling of fear more? What are some other kind of fears that developed out of the spring?
Sam Hilton
00:29:54
'People aren't sure. You know, if someone feels really passionately this way and they know that I feel really passionately this way, am I going to get hurt? Am I going to face retribution? We had a writer on the Argus last semester who her family got swatted, which is where someone will call the police and tell them that there's some violent crime about to happen. And so the Swat team shows up. She had so I think 3 or 4 times. And one of the first thoughts that she had was, my God, is this because I've published pro-Palestine articles in the Argus? It ended up being because of the gaming community, I'm pretty sure. But that fear is so present that when something violent and horrible like that happened, the assumption was, this has to do with my actions on campus, with my actions on the newspaper.
Audie Cornish
00:30:52
After this spring, we know what the colleges and universities are doing. Maybe not totally at Wesleyan, but in other places they're cracking down on protests. And do students know that's coming? Are they aware of the fallout from the spring?
Sam Hilton
00:31:10
This is speculation. I haven't spoken with any of the activists who are planning stuff for this semester yet. But as far as I know, I think that they're planning largely to go ahead with similar methods to the use that they used in the past, perhaps more sort of calculated and pinpointed. But I think that I don't think that there's a lot of fear of a crackdown coming on Wesleyan campus, at least.
Audie Cornish
00:31:35
Have you guys talked to any students who are incoming freshmen? We're trying to get a sense of if there were any fears or, you know, kind of how new students have been thinking about any of this.
Sam Hilton
00:31:47
As far as I know, we're not reporting on that as of yet, but I was an orientation leader this year, so during training there was talk about putting how to deal with with hard subjects like Gaza and Israel if they come up during orientation. I know that at least one orientation group, one of the students just asked some questions about antisemitism on campus and asked because the orientation leader was Jewish, Do you feel safe on campus? And that I wasn't there for that conversation. But as far as I know, that orientation leader assured them that they felt safe, but also acknowledged that it is sort of a touchy issue right now.
Audie Cornish
00:32:32
What was that like having that conversation? I mean, I was an R.A. in college, so we talk amongst ourselves like, you know, what was it like hearing that story and like as these students who had more experience, did it surprise you?
Sam Hilton
00:32:48
It didn't surprise me just because I think it's a valid fear. We definitely all sort of, I think, felt that either avoiding the topic if we could, or trying to reassure students the truth, which is that most of us, as far as I know, no orientation. Leaders feel unsafe in terms of Gaza, Palestine, Israel on campus. And so there have been conversations like that with returning students, as far as I know, none with incoming students. But we'll see as they start to be on campus more and talk to us more about what's going on in their lives.
Audie Cornish
00:33:28
So it sounds like more than anything, this was a wake up call for the two students who were there who were present. Right. As much as we, the media are focused on the parents and the clashes and the police and Congress, it does sound like this moment had a lasting effect on you students who are there for it, whether you are protesting or not.
Sam Hilton
00:33:52
Definitely. I think that if you ask nine out of ten Wesleyan students what was the defining thing that happened over the course of the 2023, 24 school year, they'd probably tell you it was either the Palestine encampment or the Palestine protests or just generally the debate around Israel Palestine. It's something that definitely shifted how a lot of students see each other, see the school, see President Roth in a way that I hadn't seen. I hadn't seen a shift like that happen in my previous three years here.
Audie Cornish
00:34:30
'Sam Hilton is a student at Wesleyan University and the executive editor of the Wesleyan Argus Student Newspaper. Since we're taking The Assignment on the road, we want to know what you want us to cover. Call and leave us your assignments. The number is (202) 854-8802. The Assignment is a production of CNN Audio. And our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Graelyn Brashear, Osma Noor, and Grace Walker produced this episode. Helping us to take our show on the road this week. Dan Dzula is our technical director. Chris Turner, director of photography and our video editor, Isaac Ewert. Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Audio. Special thanks, as always to Katie Hinman. And thank you for listening.
